Here is a discussion we acquaintances are having. I am designated as nu. All others are marked alphabetically as they chronologically respond.
A:Hey friends,I am writing this to give you my 'thoughts' on the election. I know that some of us have spoken briefly, yet last night at ____ I found myself getting too choked up to really talk it much in person. Sitting with two friends, they both told me they were basically crying off and on all day. I won't betray my outward manly stoicism, but let me just say that there was a reason I didn't answer my phones yesterday and simply couldn't have esoteric conversation with some of you.
In short, this election is one of the worst things to happen to our country in a very long time, certainly in my lifetime. I am shocked by the results, and devastated by the implications. I will eventually be able to discuss the election dispassionately but for now, you can read the attachment to get my views, if you are interested. I promise its not ramblings but a rational listing of my concerns. May be good stuff to help center some of your own thoughts while working through this.
By the way I have BCC'd this to you all to avoid filling everyone's inboxes with replies, as happened not too long ago with one of ___'s politically charged emails.
In the last two days, I have heard lots of people try to rationalize and ameliorate what has just happened in our election. Philosophy is interesting and the desire to feel better about ourselves is all well and good, yet there is no getting around the fact that our nation has just accelerated its pace along a path that will take this nation to a place most of us will abhor. It was just Monday that Kerry and Edwards were saying that this was the most important election of most of our lives; if so, then we are now on the other side of that watershed event. The desire and tendency to hide our heads under the blanket and pretend that it’s not all that bad is unfortunately something we all may have to get used to doing with increasing frequency.
I just had lunch with my friend Joel, and another acquaintance, who is a staunch Bush supporter. He was absolutely bursting with happiness and satisfaction that this country is now going to go in the ‘right’ direction. I bit my tongue, as long as any intellectual humanist can do in the interest of harmony, but in the end I started to lay out the case against Bush. He simply does not get it, and I fear that he is most typical of those that voted W back-in on Tuesday. Among other gems in his rational was ‘its only costing us 1200 dead a year in Iraq, and we have conquered 2 countries, destroyed their armed forces, and liberated their peoples’. After that I really didn’t want to carry on the conversation any further.
I suspect that many of us will be facing the same rhetoric repeatedly over the next four years. So just in case you haven’t really thought through all the implications of a Bush dynasty (and let’s not forget that the most natural choice for the 2008 Republican nomination will also be named Bush), I respectfully submit the following perspectives.
Environment. With Bush in office, the deconstruction of Environmental and Wildlife protection legislation and policies will increase in pace. Further abrogation of International Treaties (of which Kyoto is just one) to stem CO2 emissions, and fishery protection agreements (there are alarming indications that vast areas of the ocean contain less than 10% the historical fish populations). Abandonment of Clean Air and Clean Water Act improvements, not to mention possible scrapping of these Acts altogether (something Christine Todd Whitman, as a moderate Republican former EPA chief is concerned with). Increased ‘development’ of National Parks and Preserves for petroleum, or hardwoods, or whatever. Federal pressure on states to ease factory and auto-emission standards. And certainly little Federal impetus to severely punish corporate polluters. Finally, at the very time that our nation should be taking the lead on developing non-petroleum based economic alternatives, we have just elected an oilman president and vice-president to another four years.
Social Security and Welfare Programs. Just this morning Bush has already reaffirmed his plan to push for privatization of Social Security in the form of self-investment in the stock market (part of the reason the market is roaring today). This is great news for the Financial sector and stock manipulators – ooops – I mean brokers. And when aged people find they can’t survive on funds that have not performed as hoped, who will see to it that old folks aren’t starving in droves? Add onto this, policies that attempt to placate anger at rising drug-costs with symbolic adjustments in Medicare or Medicaid and you have the largest roll-back in US entitlements since the New Deal. Imagine that, 75 years of social programs about to become meaningless.
Social Climate and Policies. Okay, now the government can increase its war against drugs. Regardless of where you stand on the idea of pot-smoking, the current prohibition against drugs has cost our nation dearly. Over half the 2 million people in prison and jails are there for drug offenses, many of them for simple possession. Between mandatory minimums and Federal sentencing guidelines, we have basically created a class of political prisoner within our own country. Are dope smokers that serious a threat to our nation’s fabric that we must throw them into the same categories as murderers, rapists, and armed robbers? I guess compassionate conservatism means that you won’t get beaten when imprisoned; oh wait, that was before Abu Gharib policy wasn’t it? Aside from drug policies, we can expect our nation, backed by the Federal government, to begin implementation of a wide variety of actions that will bring our errant nation back to God. Federal monies for faith-based charities is certainly one tried and true road, while a slow withdraw of Federal protection for those actions and rights that are slightly immoral (like abortion rights and gay expression for instance). Add into this that within the next four years that Bush and the Republican congress will likely nominate 3 Supreme Court Justices, not to mention hundreds of other Federal judicial appointments, and we can all see that this election will affect many of us for the rest of our lives.
Economic Policy. Since Bush has been in office, our nation has gone from budget surplus to deficit – over $400 billion this last FY. Our trade deficit has grown to over $600 billion per year. All this while the Fed continues to increase the spigot on Money Supply – now $9.3 trillion. Although I am not an economist (and I don’t mean to get too technical here) all this simply means that only reason why our economy is as ‘good’ as it is, is that our government has been creating money with virtually no restraint. Building debt up at enormous, indeed historically unprecedented, proportions. Just ask yourself, what happens when you max out your credit cards, have written numerous checks but told folks to wait to cash them, and have borrowed money from every person you knew? You now, eventually you will get the financial equivalent of an old-fashioned ass kicking. Yet in this case, it will be the entire nation that suffers the consequences.
International Policy. Well, I think we all see what is going on here – at least he doesn’t hide his intentions. President Bush will continue to lead our nation by threat or actual use of force as a preferred instrument of national ambitions. ‘Do this or we’ll kick your ass; sorry, too late, you thought too long’. What should be a shtick in a comedy routine will in fact become part of our foreign relations policy. There is no telling where our nation’s military may be next deployed under the guise of the war on terrorism. If I were Syrian or Iranian, I would make damn sure that I am not living close to anything remotely construed as a military target. Now don’t get me wrong here, maybe we should have to ‘discipline’ Syria or Iran for some justifiable reason related to support of terrorism. However, any such undertaking and commitment of national resources and policy should be openly debated and voted on by Congress, and thoroughly explained to the American public, based on the true facts. Based on what happened with Iraq, I have absolutely no confidence that this will ever happen. More likely, that in four years, we will have military forces deployed across a wide swath of the Middle East, and we all be asking ourselves, ‘and how did we get here?’ And don’t expect any real ‘opposition’ to the Administration’s desires to arise from within our Intelligence or Defense apparatus, because over the last four years dissenters have been ‘re-assigned’ or outright fired. And my dear friends, on this one, I know exactly what I am talking about. So in the end, what will this renewed pre-emptive military doctrine get us? I fear a severe deterioration of the Western Alliance and NATO. Aside from our three cousins (UK, Canada, and Australia) who will always be with us in the bitter end, I really don’t see any alliance of the willing. And don’t tell me that a few poor Polish, Ukrainian, or Bulgarian conscripts, performing obligatory military service in a fox-hole in Iraq is a great symbol of a triumphant coalition. If we loose the trust of our western allies, it will mean a shift in world politics as dramatic as the rise of Fascism or Communism. A total new world, where we will be seen as the bad guys. That’s truly scary.
Iraq. What a mess. Although some would say a real bargain at only 1200 American dead per year (oh, and maybe one has to consider another 10,000 seriously wounded – you know missing legs, or arms, or blinded). Regardless of who was elected, we were destined to be in Iraq for years to come. The difference is that perhaps Kerry could have built a true coalition of UN and international ‘peacekeepers’ to slowly replace our beleaguered soldiers and Marines. Now, I just don’t see that happening. It doesn’t take a prophet to see the writing on this wall. The Army estimates were about 400,000 soldiers deployed to Iraq to ensure its stabilization, and I believe the estimate was right (this is the same number that former Army Chief of Staff Shinsecki briefed to Congress and was fired for). So how do you manage to get that many folks over to Iraq, and a few more to Afghanistan for good measure, when you have already maxed-out your forces? Oh yes my friends its coming, and with good cause, after all, didn’t we Americans just approve what our president sees as his practically divine mission? And everyone knows that every good war has to have a draft.
I guess in the end, the thing that depresses me the most is that I must realize that people that think like me are the minority in this country. That I live in a nation of people that envision our nation as god-fearing morally right folks engaged in a sort of holy war both against radical Islam (and terrorists) and against those within our own nation who are godless and corrupt.
I always marveled at the number of ex-pats I met on my overseas travels. Although I haven’t yet decided my long-term plan for where to write, perhaps some time abroad would do wonders for my experience and perspectives. The only thing that now keeps me from joining them is that I have always healed best taking the advice of the Beatles ‘with a little help from my friends’.
nu:Please do not view this as an attack on whatever friendship we may have;
I just felt that you deserved some response.
I am including _A_'s original document so any not on the original thread can
participate.
I believe we are all essentially well meaning, it's just to express it
sometimes.
In response, I would implore you to please examine the real issues, again. Look at the map and notice that once you get off the over-caffienated, going-nowhere-fast coastal megalopolisi, you have middle America. Middle America is populated primarily by veterans who did their time, came home, got a little slice of land away from the OCGNFCM so they could live in a somewhat sane manner, and raise their family with the same values. This is majority of America. The results of this election only show that the Democratic platform does not speak to Middle America.
What is the failure here? If a representative body does not hold the support of the people it wishes to speak for, then it needs to reexamine the platform upon which it stands.
Was this election about the Monkey Boy versus the Frankenstein Dude? Clearly, it was not. If that is how people choose their vote, then they are seriously ill educated about the privilege of voting. That’s right, I said privilege. Look around the world and tell me that it is not a privilege to have a choice in what your government will be. One must rightly exercise this amenity. The real issue is that our modern political system has been unable to provide clearly viable candidates upon which the populous can unite around.
Let’s look at the choices: on the one hand you have a privileged caste elitist who time and again I observed talking down to the people. On the other hand, you have a privileged caste elitist who time and again I observed talking the people up. Mmmm, I wonder who is going to get more votes.
Face it, the representatives that the parties have placed before us are only figureheads anyway and the true revisions need to come to the party agendas. Neither party speaks for me. I am a disenfranchised voter. I am disillusioned with the political process, but I have voted in every election since I registered at the age of 18, because this is the only method in which my voice can be heard in a representative democracy.
Now, on to the sniping…
Environment. Clearly some good points. We really need to find some way to unchain our reliance on limited resources.
Social Security and Welfare Programs. I’m a little confused at what you are saying here: Bush just went and bought a bunch of stocks? Would these be in companies that would end up running “business-like” programs that provide for the common welfare and social security? That’s right, let’s look at the uncapitalized words and remember that these are socialistic programs that attempt to provide well being for those that are either unable or have made their contribution to society (thank you). Knowing the greed and general civil disregard that people who typically infest the upper echelons of many industrial, financial, etc. entities is what concerns me.
Social Climate and Policies. 11 states did pass provisions for medical marijuana. Our prisons and judicial system ARE choked with what amounts to nothing worse that Billy Joe Bob had a couple too many. Please refer to Stanford Experiment; conclusion: absolute power corrupts absolutely. Sorry, that was Thoreau (or the other guy…).
Economic Policy. Good points. Though I would like to remind everybody, were it not for the US writing off war debt of ravaged countries all around the world, the US could forclose on the rest of the world THREE TIMES and counting.
International Policy. Number FOUR, a people must police themselves. I am intolerant of people who are intolerant. Barbarian extremists who hide under the flag or the book or the scroll or the genes or etc. are only showing that a swift kick hurts a lot more than polite admonitions to stop it. They must be dealt with.
Iraq. See above.
C: I told my Mom last night that we're all going to have to get abortions and marry a same-sex partner soon because that's all going to be gone in the next 4 years. She didn't think I was very funny.
D: Well, _A_ has made some good points; we do need to find a good, clean alternative source of energy leading to energy independence; we must stop acting like the "bully" of the world (thus alienating even our best allies) and concentrate our resources on really protecting the homeland (such as finding ways to make our 95000 miles of coastline secure) and Congress must take action to reverse the trend of solving problems by litigation instead of legislation. In my mind, these are the biggies! Not sure Bushy is up to the ask.
E: All I can say now is that if anyone is upset and has been crying- like I have- over the election then I sure as hec hope that they are going to get more involved over the next four years- I am joining [insert hometown] Young Democrats ........what do you plan to do???
F: my only thoughts on the election is that the majority missed the relationship between moral values and war and welfare. Guess I missed something. I wonder what Jesus would think.
A: Thanks for all the emails. And I didn't take any offense at all at your personal response. Alfter all it is only right that people exchange views and consider every aspect when forming opinions; especially so if they first put their opinion forward. So I appreciate the feedback.
With the group of folks I sent it to, I have gotten a lot of feedback saying 'me too'. So yours was a welcome change - although not too radically different. One of the folks sent me a response his sister sent him about something he wrote along the same lines as my missive. She BLASTED him - oouch!.. Glad she's not my sister.
NOTE: The next respondor has inserted point by point comments, therefore there is now a recounting of the original topic.
G in (
A::Environment. With Bush in office, the deconstruction of Environmental and Wildlife protection legislation and policies will increase in pace. Further abrogation of International Treaties (of which Kyoto is just one) (
G: –
We are not abrogating any treaties that we have signed. For instance, we did not sign the Kyoto Protocol. Furthermore, the whole Kyoto anthropogenic CO2 issue is based on an IPCC report that we now know was based on weather models that used flawed mathematical algorithms (http://www.john-daly.com/carbon.htm and http://www.john-daly.com/dietze/cmodcalc.htm) to stem CO2 emissions, and fishery protection agreements (there are alarming indications that vast areas of the ocean contain less than 10% the historical fish populations). (
G: –
I share a strong concern about overfishing, but have never seen any realistic solution to the problem. The Law of the Seas protocol does more harm than good in this area. Abandonment of Clean Air and Clean Water Act improvements (
G:,
oh, these must be the regulations Clinton signed by executive fiat in the last days of being in office since he couldn’t get our elected officials (i.e., Congress) who are constitutionally charged to make our laws to sign off on this shit), not to mention possible scrapping of these Acts altogether (something Christine Todd Whitman, as a moderate Republican former EPA chief is concerned with). Increased ‘development’ of National Parks and Preserves for petroleum, or hardwoods, or whatever (
G: –
the “protection” of our National Parks has resulted in out of control forest fires that could have been far more intelligently managed if selective logging were allowed (and yeah, I know that forest fires DO have a place in healthy forest management.). As to other valuable natural resources that are below the ground in these places, yeah, its really smart for us to give all our money to other countries so they can get these resources to us because they are SO efficient and conscientious at extracting their resources and their pollution could NEVER reach the US. And as to damage to the environment, I remember huge protests against the Alaska Pipeline…it was going to decimate the caribou population and forever despoil the pristine land of Alaska. FYI, Alaska is pretty damn pristine 35 years later and caribou herds are more extensive than ever.) Federal pressure on states to ease factory and auto-emission standards. And certainly little Federal impetus to severely punish corporate (
G: –
only “corporate”?) polluters. Finally, at the very time that our nation should be taking the lead on developing non-petroleum based economic alternatives, we have just elected an oilman president and vice-president to another four years (
GWhat the fuck does that have to do with anything? And BTW, should we have elected two trial lawyers at a time when the US doesn’t have flu vaccine because all but one of the manufacturers in this country have been sued out of the business, and judicial activism is totally out of control?).
Social Security and Welfare Programs. Just this morning Bush has already reaffirmed his plan to push for privatization (
G: –
the Bush campaign has repeatedly pointed out that the proposed program is optional (with NO reduction in existing program costs/benefits if you want to stay traditional) and only optionally covers part of what you are required to “contribute”. This is a program of choice, if it is bad, why would you have any fear of anyone choosing it as an option) of Social Security in the form of self-investment in the stock market (part of the reason the market is roaring today). This is great news for the Financial sector and stock manipulators – ooops – I mean brokers. And when aged people find they can’t survive on funds that have not performed as hoped, who will see to it that old folks aren’t starving in droves? (
G: –
The existing program is projected to go bankrupt sometime around 2045. Do the DemocRATS want to stick their heads in the sand until this time comes?) Add onto this, policies that attempt to placate anger at rising drug-costs with symbolic adjustments in Medicare or Medicaid and you have the largest roll-back in US entitlements since the New Deal. Imagine that, 75 years of social programs about to become meaningless. (
G: –
You know, the New Deal and Socialism in general was very progressive in the early part of the 20th century. Since then we have got a lot smarter and have come to realize that command controlled economies (e.g., Communist/Socialist ones) don’t work very well. Modern economic theory points to a free market system with the effective but minimalist government oversight and regulation to assure against fraud, environment and employee abuse, and anti-competitive monopolist practices.)
Social Climate and Policies. Okay, now the government can increase its war against drugs. Regardless of where you stand on the idea of pot-smoking, the current prohibition against drugs has cost our nation dearly. Over half the 2 million people in prison and jails are there for drug offenses, many of them for simple possession. Between mandatory minimums and Federal sentencing guidelines, we have basically created a class of political prisoner within our own country. Are dope smokers that serious a threat to our nation’s fabric that we must throw them into the same categories as murderers, rapists, and armed robbers? I guess compassionate conservatism means that you won’t get beaten when imprisoned; oh wait, that was before Abu Gharib policy (
G:
This was not policy, that is why the perpetrators are being tried and convicted. One guy got what 15 years, or something like that) wasn’t it? Aside from drug policies, we can expect our nation, backed by the Federal government, to begin implementation of a wide variety of actions that will bring our errant nation back to God. Federal monies for faith-based charities is certainly one tried and true road, while a slow withdraw of Federal protection for those actions and rights that are slightly immoral (like abortion rights and gay expression for instance). Add into this that within the next four years that Bush and the Republican congress will likely nominate 3 Supreme Court Justices, not to mention hundreds of other Federal judicial appointments, and we can all see that this election will affect many of us for the rest of our lives. (
G: –
How many of the nine Medical Marijuana states are Red? Google answers are blocked to me.)
Economic Policy. Since Bush has been in office, our nation has gone from budget surplus to deficit – over $400 billion this last FY. Our trade deficit has grown to over $600 billion per year. All this while the Fed continues to increase the spigot on Money Supply – now $9.3 trillion. Although I am not an economist (and I don’t mean to get too technical here) all this simply means that only reason why our economy is as ‘good’ as it is, is that our government has been creating money with virtually no restraint. Building debt up at enormous, indeed historically unprecedented (
G:
Not even close to true, during WWII and probably WW1 and the Civil War the budget deficits were understandably huge. Wars are expensive and so is homegrown 9/11 style terror. As to trade deficit, I am baffled how we are going to reduce our trade deficit when we restrict drilling for oil and many other natural resources for environmental reasons) proportions. Just ask yourself, what happens when you max out your credit cards, have written numerous checks but told folks to wait to cash them, and have borrowed money from every person you knew? You now, eventually you will get the financial equivalent of an old-fashioned ass kicking. Yet in this case, it will be the entire nation that suffers the consequences.
International Policy. Well, I think we all see what is going on here – at least he doesn’t hide his intentions. President Bush will continue to lead our nation by threat or actual use of force as a preferred instrument of national ambitions. ‘Do this or we’ll kick your ass; sorry, too late, you thought too long’. What should be a shtick in a comedy routine will in fact become part of our foreign relations policy. There is no telling where our nation’s military may be next deployed under the guise of the war on terrorism. If I were Syrian or Iranian, I would make damn sure that I am not living close to anything remotely construed as a military target. Now don’t get me wrong here, maybe we should have to ‘discipline’ Syria or Iran for some justifiable reason related to support of terrorism. However, any such undertaking and commitment of national resources and policy should be openly debated and voted on by Congress, and thoroughly explained to the American public, based on the true facts. Based on what happened with Iraq, I have absolutely no confidence that this will ever happen. More likely, that in four years, we will have military forces deployed across a wide swath of the Middle East, and we all be asking ourselves, ‘and how did we get here?’ And don’t expect any real ‘opposition’ to the Administration’s desires to arise from within our Intelligence or Defense apparatus, because over the last four years dissenters have been ‘re-assigned’ or outright fired. ((
G: –
In Republican Party circles it is well known that there are dedicated and determined enemies of the Republican Party entrenched throughout the ranks of the civil service. This Bush Administration has faced outright and open opposition from the ranks of the CIA and State Department. In fact, I believe civil servants in general vote overwhelmingly (80%+) Democratic. These folks are perfectly willing to leak classified documents to the press and often do so selectively…taking things out of context in order to embarrass Republicans. This can go both ways. If I were President, I would do everything in my power to identify and fire/reassign those who would violate the law for the sole purpose of embarrassing me.) And my dear friends, on this one, I know exactly what I am talking about. So in the end, what will this renewed pre-emptive military doctrine get us? I fear a severe deterioration of the Western Alliance and NATO. Aside from our three cousins (UK, Canada, and Australia) who will always be with us in the bitter end, I really don’t see any alliance of the willing. And don’t tell me that a few poor Polish, Ukrainian, or Bulgarian conscripts, performing obligatory military service in a fox-hole in Iraq is a great symbol of a triumphant coalition. If we loose the trust of our western allies, it will mean a shift in world politics as dramatic as the rise of Fascism or Communism. A total new world, where we will be seen as the bad guys. That’s truly scary. ((
G:
Lets look at who is NOT in Iraq, hmm lets see, let’s start with the three countries that illegally acquired billions of dollars of oil in exchange for arms to Saddam (France, Russia and Germany) then we can add pretty much every dictatorship in the world (e.g., China, Iran, Syria, etc.). Now, who’s left that’s not in Iraq…????? I don’t place much value in coalitions of crooks and assholes.)
Iraq. What a mess. Although some would say a real bargain at only 1200 American dead per year (oh, and maybe one has to consider another 10,000 seriously wounded – you know missing legs, or arms, or blinded). ((
G: –
How many died on 9/11 again? How many were injured? That was only one day, just imagine… The US invasion of Iraq was pretty much in conformance with UN resolutions http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/08/national/main528675.shtml.. It is pretty well known that the UN is a corrupt and toothless organization) Regardless of who was elected, we were destined to be in Iraq for years to come. The difference is that perhaps Kerry could have built a true coalition of UN and international ‘peacekeepers’ ((
G:
Are these the useless Blue Helmets that screw up pretty much every operation they manage (e.g., Bosnia, Cyprus, Ivory Coast, Rwanda…) Do you think the French or Russians want to get shot at by their old buddies?) to slowly replace our beleaguered soldiers and Marines. Now, I just don’t see that happening. It doesn’t take a prophet to see the writing on this wall. The Army estimates were about 400,000 soldiers deployed to Iraq to ensure its stabilization, and I believe the estimate was right (this is the same number that former Army Chief of Staff Shinsecki briefed to Congress and was fired for (
G:
Eric Shinseki was NOT fired, he left right at the end of his term. He was not on good terms with Rumsfelt and that sort of reduced Rumsfelt’s desire to extend his duty any beyond the minimum.). So how do you manage to get that many folks over to Iraq, and a few more to Afghanistan for good measure, when you have already maxed-out your forces? Oh yes my friends its coming, and with good cause, after all, didn’t we Americans just approve what our president sees as his practically divine mission? And everyone knows that every good war has to have a draft ((
G:
Unlike Kerry, Bush has done everything he said he was going to do. He has repeatedly stated that he does not want a draft and that he won’t implement one.)
I guess in the end, the thing that depresses me the most is that I must realize that people that think like me are the minority in this country. That I live in a nation of people that envision our nation as god-fearing morally right folks engaged in a sort of holy war both against radical Islam (and terrorists) and against those within our own nation who are godless and corrupt ((
G:
I think it is wise that we go after all corruption in this country. Do you disagree???).
I always marveled at the number of ex-pats I met on my overseas travels. Although I haven’t yet decided my long-term plan for where to write, perhaps some time abroad would do wonders for my experience and perspectives. The only thing that now keeps me from joining them is that I have always healed best taking the advice of the Beatles ‘with a little help from my friends’. (
G:
I truly wish that all those that wish to leave would leave. Especially Hollywood personalities who stated they would leave. Hopefully they would also renounce their citizenship so they couldn’t cancel my vote next go round.)
nu: mmmm, things are heating up. Join us in our discussion by commenting.
